Devdutt Pattanaik is a renowned Indian mythologist, author, and speaker, celebrated for his captivating interpretations of ancient Indian mythology and its relevance in contemporary times. With a unique ability to blend scholarly insights with accessible storytelling, Pattanaik has become a prominent voice in unraveling the intricacies of Hindu mythology, making it accessible to a diverse audience. His thought-provoking books and engaging talks have made a significant impact, fostering a deeper understanding of cultural traditions and inspiring a renewed appreciation for the wisdom embedded in ancient narratives.
The author recently collaborated with Audible for an audio series titled ‘Suno Ramayana’, that delves into the many layers of the epic. During an exclusive chat with News18, Devdutt Patnaik glossed over his interpretation of Ramayana and the leading figures like Hanuman.
Here are the excerpts:
How was your experience writing and narrating Suno Ramayana for Audible? Do you feel the world is gradually shifting towards listening to audiobooks/podcasts rather than reading them in the palm of their hands?
It was a different experience from writing books. The spoken and written word are very different, and this was a great opportunity. Audible has given me a lot of freedom. I usually write only basic points. My talk is usually extempore, so people get a feeling as if I’m talking to them. I don’t think the world is shifting towards podcasts, but the market is expanding. We have always been an oral culture, but they’ll always be people who will write. What you can experience by hearing is not what you can experience by writing. There will always be two different markets for each.
How do you interpret the role of dharma in the Ramayana, and how has it influenced societal norms?
Dharma is a very simple concept. It means where the strong help the weak. In the jungle, the strong exploit the weak; in Dharmic culture, the strong have to help the weak. And that is all, it is nothing else. So Ravan is strong, but he abuses his power and exploits the weak. So he abducts Sita. Despite his education and power, he commits an unhealthy action. He doesn’t respect the consent of women. That’s what the story is all about.
Surpanakha does not respect the consent of men. That’s a sign of disrespect. She tries to use her power to get her way, which doesn’t work for her. When you abuse your power, it is Adharma. I think this is the story of every society, at every time. We use our power to dominate and be territorial, and Ramayana says that doesn’t create a civilized society.
Can you discuss the significance of Hanuman’s devotion to Lord Rama and its lessons for modern life?
We want to be Hanuman. But I think we have to ask ourselves, is there a Ram around to whom we want to be a Hanuman? Or do we want Hanuman to serve us? Does that mean that we have the qualities of Ram? Everybody speaks of Hanuman’s devotion to Ram. Everybody says, I want to be like Hanuman, or I want people around to be like Hanuman. But the question is, if we do not have the qualities of Ram, how can we expect those who serve us to be Hanuman? And if people around us do not have the qualities of Ram, how can we be like Hanuman to them? Loyalty doesn’t make you Hanuman, because Kumbhakarna is loyal to Ravan and that doesn’t make Kumbhakarna equal to Hanuman. So loyalty doesn’t make you Hanuman. These are ideas that should make one think. You will appreciate it, when you listen to Suno Ramayana.
In your interpretation, how does the Ramayana address the complexities of human relationships, especially the portrayal of characters like Rama and Sita?
Every author interprets Ramayana in their own way. What the Vedas say is very clear: our natural tendency is to be territorial and dominating. That is true in all relationships. When we respect each other’s agency, consent and wishes, we create a good human relationship. Ram does not expect Sita to obey him. He tells her to stay in the palace, but she chooses to join him in the forest. It indicates that he respects her wishes and doesn’t impose his wish on her. Ram expects Sita to come back to Ayodhya, and she refuses, because Ayodhya has not treated her with respect. These indicate a kind of maturity that we often don’t find in today’s society.
What lessons can contemporary leaders draw from the leadership qualities displayed by Rama in the Ramayana?
Leaders love to dominate. These are values that Ravan displays because he demands complete loyalty and submission to his authority. He uses his power for his own pleasure. These are all qualities of Ravan. Ram does his duty as king. If you notice carefully, Ram has no ambition. He doesn’t aspire to be the king of Ayodhya. It’s a position that comes to him because he’s the eldest son of the royal family, but he’s very happy giving it away to Bharat. That indicates that he does not validate himself through his power and position, which is something that you don’t find in leaders today.
How do you view the character of Ravana in the Ramayana, and what broader philosophical or psychological insights can be derived from his story? And how has he been represented across various mediums such as films, books etc?
Ravan is someone who is highly educated, extremely strong and powerful. He abuses his power. Hanuman is as educated as Ravan. He is even more powerful than Ravan, but does not show it and does not have any arrogance. So the funny thing is, when we talk about being a Vedic scholar, we always refer to Ravan. We never realize that Hanuman is also a Vedic scholar. We refer to Ravan as a Brahmin. But Hanuman is never referred to as a Brahmin because he doesn’t need any caste status to make him wise, strong, powerful or humble. I think that is important. Many people find Ravan very glamorous, because he displays his power. I think that people want that kind of power to dominate other human beings. We fail to realise the wisdom of Hanuman, and we only want to see him in a servile position. That tells a lot about our own aspirations.
The Ramayana has various adaptations across cultures. How do you think its universal themes resonate with people from diverse backgrounds?
The universal theme is very simple. In the jungle, the strong dominate the weak. In a cultured, civilized world, the strong help the weak. The world will always look at Ravan as the Vedic scholar and will forget that Hanuman is also a Vedic scholar. The world will refer to Ravan as Brahmin, and try to show Hanuman as a tribal person. This is in spite of Hanuman being highly educated, strong and without the desire to show his power to others. I think that all the Ramayanas present this idea.
Can you elaborate on the symbolism and metaphorical aspects embedded in the Ramayana that have gone unnoticed by readers till this date? And something that you aim to achieve through this podcast?
Well, what I think has been unnoticed is that Sita makes five choices in the Ramayana that most people fail to see. Each choice has consequences, and she bears them stoically. That is something that we forget to see. Valmiki is very clear that every human being has a choice, and they have to respect other people’s choice. Surpanakha doesn’t respect Ram’s choice, Ravan doesn’t respect Sita’s choice. So these are very modern ideas composed 2000 years ago.
How do you approach the challenge of interpreting ancient texts like the Ramayana for a contemporary audience, balancing tradition and relevance?
I think human beings have been the same 1000 years ago, 2000 years ago, 10,000 years ago. So there is absolutely no challenge in interpreting the Ramayana. Many journalists and scholars think that people then were different from people today. And so, what they wrote 1000 years ago is different from what they wrote today. The only difference is the technological advancement. Nothing else has really changed.
After this, do you plan to collaborate with Audible more on other epics and Hindu texts?
I have already worked with Audible on the Vedas and the Mahabharata. There have been many collaborative works with Audible, and I’m sure we’ll be working on many others in the future.
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