Karan Thapar: Hello and welcome to Devil's Advocate. My guest today is widely considered the enlightened face of Marxism in India. He believes that the time has come to learn from past mistakes and change the way we do things. The problem is that more often the challenge that he faces comes from his own party and his allies.
Can he overcome it or will they checkmate him. That's the principal question that I shall put today in an exclusive interview to Buddhadeb Bhattacharya.
Chief Minister, last year you said we cannot dwell in the past. We will have to keep pace with changing times. We have to reform and perform or perish. What precisely did you mean?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Well, what I am telling my colleagues and also members of my party and media is that big changes are taking place all over the world. Our experience in Soviet Union failed. Now what we are experiencing in China and Vietnam are new policies. We have contacts with major communist parties all over the world. We are debating among ourselves and have come to certain conclusions that our policies, programmes have to change. Otherwise, we can't go forward. We have to change our thinking by formulating new economic policies. We have to change out idea about democracy, we have to change our idea about multi-party system and political pluralism.
In all these areas, we have to change. And in case of governance, what we have come a long way from what we thought when we first started this government in the year 1977. Now big changes have taken place in the world, in the country. Therefore, we are trying to formulate our policies in industry, in agriculture, in education. The essence is the world is changing and we have to change accordingly.
Karan Thapar: You also said something else last year that is equally important. You said we face -- we mean the Left parties -- an image problem. We committed mistakes in '60s and '70s and investors are still apprehensive about us. What sort of mistakes did you have in mind.
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: I will tell you. When we were in the Opposition, we encouraged certain agitation in factories and in other places also. Like gherao, forcefully confining managements in factories. And gherao is a term now used in the Oxford dictionary. That is our contribution.
Now, we feel there were serious mistakes. It has sent wrong messages to every part in the country and in other countries. Therefore, when we are changing, we tell out trade union leaders look we just cannot repeat our past mistakes. You have to understand the new situation. There is competition all over the world. Productivity, quality of production -- these are not only the headache of the management. You have to share it. If the factory fails, then you will lose your jobs. Therefore, there should be harmonious relations between management and workers. Otherwise, we cannot advance.
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Karan Thapar: You are talking about a major change in thinking and attitude. You are talking about a major attempt to admit past mistakes. These are both very major attempts.
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Yes, we did accept certain mistakes. And it created a serious image problem in the country and also in foreign countries.
Karan Thapar: Now, would you accept that both these statements that I have quoted are in a sense your twin poles of the challenge that you face as a Chief Minister -- the first being to change the thinking and attitude of your party, the second being to convince investors that they have to forget the past and accept that there is a new government and new thinking in Bengal today?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Let me reply to your second question first. That is most important so far as I am concerned. We have to convince the investors -- investors of the country and of foreign countries -- that we are an investment-friendly government. Not only in our speeches, but in our action. And I think things are changing for the better.
Karan Thapar: What about convincing your party that the time has come to change its attitude and change its thinking?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: That debate is still going on. I am an optimist. This debate is going on in almost all communist parties all over the world. I attended party conferences of South African Communist Party. There was a great debate about nationalisation and non-nationalisation.
Karan Thapar: Let's stick to the debate in your party. Let's take up a couple of examples because to many people, it seems that Buddhadeb Bhattacharya says new things, does new things. But when he comes back to Kolkata, his party either opposes them or the party tries to dilute them or worse sometimes the party tries to sabotage them.
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Things are not so bad. I can just give you two-three examples. For years together, for the last 20-25 years, we had to run public undertakings. They are all loss-making units and we could not do anything. Earlier, these were all private units and when the factories closed for many reasons, in many cases for the failure of the managements, the workers demanded that we should take over. We took over without knowing the consequences. Now, most of them are loss-making. Then I decided that we just cannot allow this to go on. We have to change. We have to do something.
So, we started restructuring. We have completed almost 16 units. Some we have to close, some we have to privatise and some others will go to joint sectors. The main thing is we are restructuring the public sector.
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Karan Thapar: Quite right. That is the policy of the Chief Minister of West Bengal that I have no doubt about. And in fact, as your Industry Minister Nirupam Sen had recently said 'the burden that these companies placed on the state in huge and as a result we have to reduce our spending. If they are not viable, we will close them. The problem is your own affiliated unions don't believe that profitability and economic viability are the right way of judging public sector undertakings. They disagree with your thinking.
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: No. You see we could convince these state union leaders and then the workers also that there is no alternatives. No government -- either Left or Right -- can afford to run government this way.
Karan Thapar: But are you succeeding in convincing them?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Yes, we have almost completed the first phase of restructuring.
Karan Thapar: Except for the fact that you are doing it in the teeth of their opposition. Jyoti Prasad Basu, general secretary of the Coordination Committee of Government Employees, says about your attempt to restructuring: "Most of the companies were started with a social motive. And profit making was never the objective." So when you say to him these are not viable, he says to you viability is not an important concern.
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: All that I can say that we are in touch with all trade union leaders and the person you mentioned is government employees' leader. We tell them look you go through the papers, go through the figures, statistics -- how the government is spending so much. And all this with what results? We just can't afford to see these companies. And we have completed the first phase. In the second phase, we are going to restructure SEB and transport companies.
Karan Thapar: And you are committed to restructuring both state electricity and transport?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Yes.
Karan Thapar: These are going to be the most difficult phases you face.
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Yes, difficult. But I am sure we will be able to do it.
Karan Thapar: You have the determination?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Yes.
Karan Thapar: Let me tell you why I asked you that question. Last year in August, speaking to the Singapore-India Chamber of Commerce -- with the whole world listening to you -- this is what you said: "I am telling my workers 'you have to change, if you fail to change, your company may fail'." One month later, you got your reply from MK Pandhe, the head of CITU, the CPM trade union. Speaking at your own politburo, do you know what he said publicly? He said: "Change should not go against our basic principles." Can you overcome that opposition?
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Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Yes. We are debating among ourselves, no doubt about that. There are differences of opinion. Shades of differences you can say. But, I am always trying to come to certain consensus with the trade union leaders. And I think that is not a major problem for us. They look at it from their point of view. I have to run the government. I have to protect the interest of both -- the industry, the corporate houses and the workers.
Karan Thapar: In which case let me ask you a critical question. Which is more important to you -- running the government or appeasing your trade union colleagues?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Both.
Karan Thapar: You can't do both.
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Yes. Becase the two are not so antagonistic.
Karan Thapar: There is definitely an antagonism.
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: So in that case we will have to pursuade them, we have to convince them.
Karan Thapar: What happens when you fail to convince?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: If I fail, what I believe I will carry on.
Karan Thapar: If you fail, what you believe you will do?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Yes.
Karan Thapar: That's a promise?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Yes, that's a promise. Because I am committed to the people.
Karan Thapar: So, at the end of the day, Buddhadeb Bhattacharya as Chief Minister of Bengal will do what he thinks is right for the state regardless of what the unions say if after trying to pursuade them he fails to do so?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Yes. But I have to move patiently and try to pursuade them at least and make them understand the reality.
Karan Thapar: The problem is how much patience do you have. Let me give you another example. In September, there was a statewide general strike. You pleaded with the unions not to paralyse the IT industry. Not only did they ignore you, they embarrassed you. For the last six months, you spent your time explaining to the industry that that sort pf mistakes will never happen again.
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Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: I am telling you, I am not only meeting the IT players to explain what happened on that particular day. I am also meeting trade union leaders to explain before them what is IT all about.
Karan Thapar: Do they understand?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: I have sent some experts to explain before them what IT is. What's the difference between a jute factory and an IT company? You have to understand that and then you have to take a decision.
One thing I can assure you is that it was some outsiders who created some problems. I will see to it that no outsider can enter any IT company in the future.
Karan Thapar: Including using the security forces if necessary?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Of course.
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Karan Thapar: In other words, you will use the state police to ensure that trade unionists from outside don't interfere.
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: What I feel, if I come out with an appeal to the workers of IT and also other workers that you shouldn't disturb IT factories from outside ...
Karan Thapar: It failed in September.
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: There was a confusion.
Karan Thapar: How do you know it won't happen again?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: I assure you. I have assured you because I had a discussion with them.
Karan Thapar: Is this an assurance that people like Wipro, who are investing a fortune in your state, can they believe it?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: I have sent out the message and they understand what I say I do.
Karan Thapar: Let me go back to the quotation that I began with. You said we have to reform and perform or we have to perish. People look at you and say there is no doubt that Buddhadeb Bhattacharya is determined to reform and perform. The problem is many in his party and many of his allies want to perish.
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Nobody wants to perish. They have to understand reason. That things are changing, we have to change accordingly. But some people still have peculier ideas and they stick to old dogmas. I have to pursuade them to change.
Karan Thapar: When you came back from your triumphant tour of Indonesia and Singapore, having secured Rs 500 crore investment of the Salem Group, instead of being applauded by your own allies and your party, your ally -- the General Secretary of Revolutionary Socialist Party, Debabrata Bandyopadhyay -- turned around and said publicly we shall not allow multinationals to invest here come what may.
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: I know their position. They are a Left party. But I had a discussion with Mr Banerjee several times after that.
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Karan Thapar: And he changed his mind?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: No, they will not change their mind. They will oppose their own way. But I have to find my own way.
Karan Thapar: You are determined to go forward?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Yes.
Karan Thapar: What about people like Abdur Rezzak Molla, your own Land Reforms Minister? He opposed it.
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: No. He didn't oppose the idea. He is concerned with land. Conversion of land.
Karan Thapar: Have you convinced him?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Yes. Now there is no problem. Now, we have taken a decision in the Cabinet. Clarifying all these issues how to convert agricultural land from agriculture to industry. There was some gray areas. Now, we have clarified.
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Karan Thapar: Let me put it like this. You are telling me that you are prepared to accept the opposition from Debabrata Bandyopadhyay, but you will still carry on. You are prepared to accept opposition from the trade unions, and after you tried to pursuade them and failed, you will still carry on?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: You mean not only you. Because you have a clear industrial policy.
Karan Thapar: Is your government united with you?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Yes, of course.
Karan Thapar: Is your party united with you?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Of course.
Karan Thapar: All of them?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: All of them. There are some differences of opinion, but I think it is not a major problem for me. You see it is not our policy or my policy. Industrial policy is a government policy. It was formulated by the government. All parties are committed to it. If somebody says one fine morning that no I don't accept this, I cannot help that.
Karan Thapar: In which case, let me put it like this. If you win the forthcoming elections, will the same Buddhadeb Bhattacharya, who is speaking to me about the importance of reforms, about the importance of change, then actually implement it finally?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Of course.
Karan Thapar: One hundred per cent?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Of course. If we get the verdict of the people, that will help me go ahead.
Karan Thapar: It will help you?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Yes.
Karan Thapar: And the bigger the majority you get, the more determined you will be to reform and change?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Of course. It is just like that.
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Karan Thapar: So, you are actually appealing to the people of Bengal. You are saying, "Give me the biggest majority possible so that I can give you the biggest change and fastest growth"?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Yes, exactly.
Karan Thapar: Mr Bhattacharya, let's talk about the election that start next month. Are you embarrassed by the fact that because of widespread fears that Left parties indulge in what is called scientific rigging, Bengal is going to see a five-day polling process over an unprecedented 22 days.
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: My first reaction is that you should not use this term 'scientific rigging'. You shouldn't denigrate science.
Karan Thapar: Okay. My point is does the Left Front indulge in rigging -- scientific or otherwise?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: You see, it is not possible to win elections through wrong practices -- rigging or whatever it is. People and some sections of media, they don't understand why it is happening? Why this government have won six consecutive elections and running this government for 28 years, Why? Is there not any anti-incumbancy factor? Is there not any grievances of the people? The main point, I would like to draw your attention to is that the situation of West Bengal is unique in one area. There is one area that is most important. We have successfully implemented land reforms in our state. And this has changed the political corelations of the state.
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Karan Thapar: As a result, people vote for you?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: People will vote for us. Seventy-two per cent of the land belong to the poor. Panchayat belongs to the poor. They will not change their mind.
Karan Thapar: All right. That is your explanation for why the Left Front has won six consecutive elections in the state. On the other hand, 600 companies of paramilitary police and paramilitary troops will be enforcing just the first phase of elections as compared to 300 for the whole of Bengal in 2002. That's the extent to which the EC has lost confidence in Bengal.
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: I have no allegations against EC. Let them get more forces from outside. That will not create any problem for us. Because that can't change the mindset of the people.
Karan Thapar: 13 lakh illegal, fraudulent names have been deleted from the electoral registration.
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: It is normal. It is quite normal.
Karan Thapar: No, it is not. It is four-times what happened in 2004. It's not normal, it's four-times greater.
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Let them delete. I am totally satisfied the names of dead people, people who have changed their homes, left their homes that should be cut off from the list. I think this is not a major problem. They have done it correctly.
Karan Thapar: It is not a major problem? They have done it correctly?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: They have done it correctly and we have supported them.
Karan Thapar: You applauded the Election Commission?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Yes.
Karan Thapar: Can I point out that it is very different from what your colleague Biman Bose, the Chairman of the Left Front, is saying about the EC? Just earlier this week, he accused the EC officials of not knowing what they were doing, of acting according to whims and fancies. You don't agree with him?
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Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: I am not party to criticising the Election Commission in any way.
Karan Thapar: When your senior colleague, like the Chairman of the Left Front, criticises the EC, you think they are making a mistake?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: I don't comment on what my friends have said. But so far as I am concerned, as the Chief Minister of the state and as a leader of the party also, I don't want to say anything about the Election Commission?
Karan Thapar:Interesting thing is that you are not supporting your party colleague when he criticises the Election Commission, you are maintaining your own position and you are applauding the Election Commission.
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: I am not applauding. I am not reacting. Let them do whatever they like.
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Karan Thapar: Let me come back to the quote I began with. Tamil Nadu with 234 seats will see a one-day elections, and it will all be over in one day flat. West Bengal with just 60 more seats is going to see polling over five days spread over 22 days.
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: So what? We are ready to play One-Day cricket, we are ready to play five-day Tests.
Karan Thapar: You are not embarrassed by this?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: No, we are ready to play One-Day cricket, we are ready to play five-day Tests. Our team is ready.
Karan Thapar: Isn't this a question mark over the way things are being handled in West Bengal? Doesn't that question mark embarrass you?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: With these decisions they can't change the mindset of the people. I am sticking to my point.
Karan Thapar: Except for Bengal seems to be treated the same way as Bihar. As Chief Minister, are not you embarrassed that you are being put on the same level?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: People will decide. People will react. People's verdict is final.
Karan Thapar: So you have no anger, no anguish against the Election Commission?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Absolutely not. Because I believe in the strength of the people. They will say the last word.
Karan Thapar: And you will not repeat the criticism levelled against the Election Commission by your senior party colleagues like the Left Front Chairman Biman Bose?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: I will never.
Karan Thapar: You are dissociating yourself from that.
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Exactly.
Karan Thapar: Actually dissociating yourself?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Yes. Because I know my responsibility.
Karan Thapar: That is a very strong thing to do. He could be upset and angry with you.
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: But I have to perform my duty.
Karan Thapar: This time around because of the monitoring, because of the security people are questioning whether the Left Front can win again? Can you win?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Of course. I invite you to come on the day of the counting.
Karan Thapar: And will in fact the CPM, this time around, win a majority on its own?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Hope so.
Karan Thapar: Hope so? Suddenly you are not so sure?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Because before the elections, one cannot say.
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Karan Thapar: But you were absolutely confident that the Left parties as a whole could win. What about the CPM winning a majority on its own?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Because the political corelation at this moment, our position, our campaign, our strength, the media, industry, middle class, working class, farmers -- if you take all this together, our position has improved, no doubt.
Karan Thapar: If your position has improved and you have no doubt about it, then why are you not saying that the CPM would win a majority on its own?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Because I cannot say before the election results are out.
Karan Thapar: Suddenly on this critical issue you are being honest or are you losing confidence?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: About?
Karan Thapar: This critical issue whether CPM would win a majority on its own. Are you being honest or have you lost your confidence?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: No. I am confident. But the question of CPM winning the majority is an important point. But we are a front after all -- Left Front.
Karan Thapar: As the Chief Minister of West Bengal, I want to draw your attention to a major crisis that occurred this week in national politics. The whole issue of offices of profit. Eleven of Left Front MPs are alleged to be holders of offices of profit. Several of these are members of your party. That also includes the speakers. On Thursday, Sonia Gandhi set a moral example by resigning. Do you think the others should follow quit?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: No. Let me explain to you. Our party position is that the main problem started with the definition of office of profit. It is totally a grey area. Nobody knows what it is?
Karan Thapar: It needs to be clarified?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Yes. Only Parliament can solve this problem by passing a bill in Parliament. They should not have an ordinance. That much I can tell you.
Karan Thapar: Centre was wrong in trying to bring an ordinance.
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Yes
Karan Thapar: Can I push a little further? In addition to being wrong in trying to do it through an ordinance, were they also wrong in adjourning Parliament sine die without consulting the opposition or the other parties.
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Yes. They did it hurriedly just to close Parliament sine die and come out with the ordinance. This isn't fair in a Parliamentary democracy. They should seriously deal with it. They should not have gone with the ordinance and instead placed a bill in Parliament and there should be consensus. Because all parties are involved, not only our parties -- Congress, BJP, others. So many MPs are involved in so many corporations, agencies.
Karan Thapar: Many people say that the behaviour of the Central Government on Wednesday and Thursday when they adjourned Parliament sine die, when they tried to make a major amendment in the law through an ordinance rather than through a bill, it reminded them of the days of Emergency.
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: That is the problem with the Congress. They should not have done this. They should have applied their mind before doing that.
Karan Thapar: You too felt that this was reminiscent of the Emergency?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: They have learnt a lesson from Emergency. Because Mrs Gandhi was defeated for that reason. They should not revive their old ideas.
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Karan Thapar: How serious a mistake was this?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Serious, very serious.
Karan Thapar: Very serious? Has it damaged the moral standing of the Central Government.
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: It's not that they have lost their moral standing or standard, but people have not liked what they were doing.
Karan Thapar: Even if they haven't totally lost their moral standing and credibility, has that standing been dented?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Partly, I should say.
Karan Thapar: It has been?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Yes. Therefore, Sonia Gandhi resigned. She accepted the situation.
Karan Thapar: Tell me. Sonia Gandhi resigned to save the situation. In other words, she resigned because her party had got into such a predicamental problem that she had to resign to save her party.
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Yes. To convince the people that at least she is not responsible for all this.
Karan Thapar: So in other words, Sonia's resignation was an act of last-minute desperation to save her party?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Her party and her image.
Karan Thapar: And her image?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Because it had become between Jaya Bachchan vs Sonia Gandhi?
Karan Thapar: Has Sonia Gandhi's image in your eyes gone up or down or is it the same?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: I don't think so.
Karan Thapar: It stayed the same.
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Same. Yes same.
Karan Thapar: So this is not capturing the moral high ground?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Because she cannot deny that the Government was moving for an ordinance and she was not in the know of anything. I also don't believe as chairperson of UPA she was not in the know of things. But finally they could not understand its impact. Not only the media but people at large could not accept it.
Karan Thapar: Finally, Chief Minister you are one of those rare politicians in India who knows and accepts that there is life outside politics. You have shown it and proved it in your own life. How then do you justify the fact that repeatedly and deliberately you have politicised the fact that Sourav Ganguly has been dropped from the Indian cricket team?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: I met Sourav yesterday. he is terribly upset. What I feel, it's not that Sourav is a Bengali. It is that they are insulting him and humiliating him.
Karan Thapar: Except are you right as Chief Minister of Bengal to judge what the selectors do? Do you have the capacity, do you have the knowledge, and do you have the expertise to judge the selectors?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: No, I don't. But if you go through the performance of Sourav Ganguly as a captain and a batsman ...
Karan Thapar: Let me quote what you said on December 16. "Do these people have the acumen to judge Sourav Ganguly? I doubt the wisdom and sense of proportion of the people who are behind this."
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: I repeat this.
Karan Thapar: You stand by it?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Yes, I stand by it. But my main reason is that I was a cricket player in my college, but not like these selectors. But if you compare Sourav with these selectors, who are they? They are nothing.
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Karan Thapar: The selectors are nothing as compared to Sourav Ganguly?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: To judge Sourav Ganguly.
Karan Thapar: The selectors are no one to judge Sourav Ganguly?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Their level of wisdom. If you go through the performance of Sourav Ganguly... They are deliberately doing it.
Karan Thapar: So, you stand by everything that you have said?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Yes.
Karan Thapar: You don't think you own an apology to Kiran More.
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Why should I? They are doing it wrongly. They are doing it with vested interest.
Karan Thapar: Are you sure you are not saying this to make a political capital?
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: No. I don't need it. I told Sharad Pawar that we want justice. That's all. If you go by his performance, how can you drop him from the team?
Karan Thapar: Chief Minister, a pleasure talking to you in Devil's Advocate.
Buddhadeb Bhattacharya: Thank you.
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